Post by admin on Aug 26, 2007 2:16:29 GMT -5
Kerb-Crawling
Street work is one of the few areas of sex work were the clients of adult workers can be criminalized.
The SOA 1985 created two rather clumsily worded offences concerning the solicitation of women by men for the purpose of prostitution. It has now been made gender-neutral, i.e. applies to women clients and male workers too.
(1) Kerb-crawling
A person commits an offence if he solicits another person or persons for the purpose of prostitution
(a) from a motor vehicle while it is in a street or public place or
(b) in a street or public place while in the immediate vicinity of a motor vehicle he has just got out of,
either persistently or in a manner likely to cause a nuisance to the solicited person or to other persons in the neighbourhood.
source - www.sw5.info/morelaw.htm#soliciting
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Redgrass
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Re: current laws effecting clients
« Reply #1 on Nov 3, 2004, 8:56am »
Make seeking sex workers more difficult for the clients & only the sex workers suffer.
driving it further awy from safer areas! Confirming their stigma of prostitutes. Most of the violence that comes from clients is based on the belief that they were doing society a favour.
I have nearly died at the hands of a client with this beleif & have lost friends who were murdered because of this belief.
My name is Julie Bindel, and I am monitoring these boards with interest, as I am currently drafting a response to PtP. I am a supporter of the Swedish law. Can you give me your opinions as to why you think it would not work in the UK, and is there anyone who would support it?
Thanks, Best, Julie
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MichaelaWarner
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Re: current laws effecting clients
« Reply #3 on Nov 9, 2004, 6:12pm »
Hi Julie
Welcome to the forum. The Swedish method is widely dismissed amongst people with experience of prostitution because it has been found to increase the danger and incidence of violence. It's both a repressive and regressive strategy that has been found to be counter-productive.
Have you had a look at the section on this site about how things are done in other countries? There's a section on Sweden and it includes Petra Ostergen's report and analysis on the impact of the Swedish measures. I'd especially like to draw your attention to the final section "Official reports" which recounts the findings of the National Council for Crime Prevention, The National Board of Health and Welfareand the National Police Board.
It's worth reading the entire article by Ostergren but these are important highlights regarding how the new measures have increased the risk of violence against women, not decreased it.
"All of the authorities say that there is no evidence that prostitution was lower overall. Instead hidden prostitution had probably increased. "
"All of the reports address the problems emerging after the new law was introduced. .... The respondents in the National Board of Health and Welfare's study (of which none are sexworkers themselves) believe female sexworkers now experience more difficulties and are more exposed then before. The buyers are "worse" and more dangerous, and the women who cannot stop or move their business are dependent on these more dangerous men, since they cannot afford to turn them down as before. "
.... The National Police Board has also found the law an obstacle to prosecuting profiteers who exploit the sexual labour of others. Earlier legal cases against such men could sometimes be supported by the testimonies of sex-buyers. But these men are no longer willing to assist, since they themselves are now guilty of committing a crime. "
The Swedish method seems to be a disaster in terms of violence against women.
There's also an analysis by Don Kulick there about the background and thinking behind the Swedish strategy.
So far, of the responses I've seen to the Home Office consultation and the various discussions on boards and in the media, the Swedish method is not well regarded by people with direct exerience of prostitution either as sex workers, clients or outreach workers.
There are viable models in other countries, aspects of which have been successful without increasing violence and anti-social behaviour. A hybrid of these effective measures would be far preferable to the Swedish model as they have more chance of being effective and sustainable as well as not increasing danger to anyone.
Regards, Michaela.
« Last Edit: Nov 9, 2004, 7:04pm by MichaelaWarner » Link to Post - Back to Top IP: Logged
Redgrass
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Re: current laws effecting clients
« Reply #4 on Nov 10, 2004, 8:54am »
Hi Julia. I have had this discussion before on a feminist website about the Swedish model & realise it is supported by a section of feminist. Whilst understanding yours & their reasons for supporting a legislation that attempts to protect those in sexwork. It is a good example of what can go wrong when sexworkers themselves are not included in the initial structureing or ideals set around such a drastic law reform!
The foundation of the Swedish model & PTP have not got 2 basic principles in place to begin with. Which is the acknowledgement that there are 2 definitions of those in sexwork.
!. Voluntary.
2. Forced.
The principles of one is approved, whilst the other is ignored!
No matter what well meaning supporters against violence of women would like to see, the other side of the coin is rejected.
Rejection is something that sexworkers have fought against & have had to face all their working lives.
This kind of exclusion from well meaning groups & individuals has added to the fracture of women attempting to attain their human rights.
It, in itself is disempowering for those who represent the vast majority of sexworkers.
Which does not recognise our own abilities to make voluntary decisions, at the same time we refuse to tolerate forced-labour servitude.
The Swedish model is wrong in the assumption that `all` prostitutes are victims. To be labelled as such is morally & emotionally crippling to those in the majority of sexworkers.
The majority do `not` get included in staistics that are gathered from data received. This main body of statistics are collected from existing drop-in centres/courts & support agencies. Giving a distorted & discrimatory picture of prostitutes & prostitution. It adds to the already stereo-typing of this profession.
If this major discrepancy between forced/voluntary prostitution was acknowledged & ironed-out, I feel more prostitutes who see themselves as people who have made their own choices & are happy with their choices, would come forward to contribute & feel valued.
Feeling then that their imput has been a significant part of the construction of laws which affect `their` rights to work without harassment, in safety, with the full support of the laws around them.
Freeing large amounts of revenue which is used against prostitutes & their clients, for those who are in true need of support, in order to find a way out!
The political/social climate forces the majority of sexworkers underground, thereby giving a misrepresentation of the greater part of prostitution.
Fear of the `stigma` is the biggest oppresser of the human rights of sexworkers!
This is the reason that I am against the Swedish model & PTP, or any other law reform that shackles the freedom for any worker.
Women & children in prostitution who are abused, are so, not because of the exchange of money for sex, but because we lack the institutional powre to defend ourselves & our rights as workers. This is a labour issue not a prostitution issue!
I hope this goes some way into helping you undrestand the perspective of other prostitutes too Julia!
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sw5
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Affecting what?
« Reply #5 on Nov 10, 2004, 2:18pm »
Quote:
I am a supporter of the Swedish law. Can you give me your opinions as to why you think it would not work in the UK, and is there anyone who would support it?
Let's put it the other way around as you would like to see a fundamental change to UK law: why do you think it would work?
It has not ended prostitution in Sweden, after all.
Every one of the Swedish governmental reports examining the law believe that there has been no long-term drop in the level of prostitution.
The Swedish police say the law has made it more difficult to locate and prosecute traffickers and exploiters.
So what do you mean by 'work'?
It certainly has sent a message that there are some people, in a position to pass laws, who do not like prostitution.
But it has done that by ignoring the best interests of the people - women, really, as the existance of male sex workers is almost always ignored in the Swedish debate - who it is claimed to 'protect'.
Finally, what law would you like to see passed?
The Swedish statute concerns itself not with the purchase of sex, but of a 'temporary sexual relationship'.
If that is what you want, what does it mean?
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Redgrass
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Re: current laws effecting clients
« Reply #6 on Nov 24, 2004, 2:50pm »
There is a move to criminalise clients who have sex with those who are brought into this country for prostitution. See Media Watch.
How will clients know that their clients are forced into prostitution?
What about foreign prostitutes what are the implications for them?
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SCOTPEP
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Re: current laws effecting clients
« Reply #7 on Dec 1, 2004, 2:33pm »
Perhaps now that the deadline has passed for responses to Paying the Price, Julie will have some time available to answer the questions asked by SW5. We would also be very keen to read her responses.
As well as the Petra Ostergren essay mentioned above, Bayswan.org has a page of links to critiques of the Swedish model: www.bayswan.org/swed/swed_index.html. Of particular note are www.bayswan.org/swed/livjessen.html ("Prostitution seen as violence against women - a supportive or oppressive view?" by Liv Jessen of Norway's national centre for prostitutes) and www.bayswan.org/swed/nordicpros.html (press release from the first Nordic sex workers' conference).
Helen J Self in her comments on Liz Kelly and Julie Bindel's "A critical examination of responses to prostitution in four countries" raises points not only in her critique of their paper but in her critique of Sweden's approach itself. Unfortunately this does not seem to be on-line? One of her closing remarks is that "those who work reluctantly [should not] have their problems compounded by legislation which places them at greater risk".
Still on the subject of ways of dealing with prostitution, Julie, is it true that on Woman's Hour yesterday you asserted that Edinburgh's tolerance zone had been full of drug addicts, pimps, and violent attacks? As this is not our experience of it, nor is it the experience of the police, we would be interested to know on what research this was based, if you said it. As we have already stated many times, since losing the tolerance zone, a far greater proportion of Edinburgh's street-based sex workers are drug-dependent, there has been a rise in drug-pimping, and there has been an enormous (1000%) increase in attacks.
Street work is one of the few areas of sex work were the clients of adult workers can be criminalized.
The SOA 1985 created two rather clumsily worded offences concerning the solicitation of women by men for the purpose of prostitution. It has now been made gender-neutral, i.e. applies to women clients and male workers too.
(1) Kerb-crawling
A person commits an offence if he solicits another person or persons for the purpose of prostitution
(a) from a motor vehicle while it is in a street or public place or
(b) in a street or public place while in the immediate vicinity of a motor vehicle he has just got out of,
either persistently or in a manner likely to cause a nuisance to the solicited person or to other persons in the neighbourhood.
source - www.sw5.info/morelaw.htm#soliciting
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Redgrass
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Re: current laws effecting clients
« Reply #1 on Nov 3, 2004, 8:56am »
Make seeking sex workers more difficult for the clients & only the sex workers suffer.
driving it further awy from safer areas! Confirming their stigma of prostitutes. Most of the violence that comes from clients is based on the belief that they were doing society a favour.
I have nearly died at the hands of a client with this beleif & have lost friends who were murdered because of this belief.
My name is Julie Bindel, and I am monitoring these boards with interest, as I am currently drafting a response to PtP. I am a supporter of the Swedish law. Can you give me your opinions as to why you think it would not work in the UK, and is there anyone who would support it?
Thanks, Best, Julie
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MichaelaWarner
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Re: current laws effecting clients
« Reply #3 on Nov 9, 2004, 6:12pm »
Hi Julie
Welcome to the forum. The Swedish method is widely dismissed amongst people with experience of prostitution because it has been found to increase the danger and incidence of violence. It's both a repressive and regressive strategy that has been found to be counter-productive.
Have you had a look at the section on this site about how things are done in other countries? There's a section on Sweden and it includes Petra Ostergen's report and analysis on the impact of the Swedish measures. I'd especially like to draw your attention to the final section "Official reports" which recounts the findings of the National Council for Crime Prevention, The National Board of Health and Welfareand the National Police Board.
It's worth reading the entire article by Ostergren but these are important highlights regarding how the new measures have increased the risk of violence against women, not decreased it.
"All of the authorities say that there is no evidence that prostitution was lower overall. Instead hidden prostitution had probably increased. "
"All of the reports address the problems emerging after the new law was introduced. .... The respondents in the National Board of Health and Welfare's study (of which none are sexworkers themselves) believe female sexworkers now experience more difficulties and are more exposed then before. The buyers are "worse" and more dangerous, and the women who cannot stop or move their business are dependent on these more dangerous men, since they cannot afford to turn them down as before. "
.... The National Police Board has also found the law an obstacle to prosecuting profiteers who exploit the sexual labour of others. Earlier legal cases against such men could sometimes be supported by the testimonies of sex-buyers. But these men are no longer willing to assist, since they themselves are now guilty of committing a crime. "
The Swedish method seems to be a disaster in terms of violence against women.
There's also an analysis by Don Kulick there about the background and thinking behind the Swedish strategy.
So far, of the responses I've seen to the Home Office consultation and the various discussions on boards and in the media, the Swedish method is not well regarded by people with direct exerience of prostitution either as sex workers, clients or outreach workers.
There are viable models in other countries, aspects of which have been successful without increasing violence and anti-social behaviour. A hybrid of these effective measures would be far preferable to the Swedish model as they have more chance of being effective and sustainable as well as not increasing danger to anyone.
Regards, Michaela.
« Last Edit: Nov 9, 2004, 7:04pm by MichaelaWarner » Link to Post - Back to Top IP: Logged
Redgrass
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Re: current laws effecting clients
« Reply #4 on Nov 10, 2004, 8:54am »
Hi Julia. I have had this discussion before on a feminist website about the Swedish model & realise it is supported by a section of feminist. Whilst understanding yours & their reasons for supporting a legislation that attempts to protect those in sexwork. It is a good example of what can go wrong when sexworkers themselves are not included in the initial structureing or ideals set around such a drastic law reform!
The foundation of the Swedish model & PTP have not got 2 basic principles in place to begin with. Which is the acknowledgement that there are 2 definitions of those in sexwork.
!. Voluntary.
2. Forced.
The principles of one is approved, whilst the other is ignored!
No matter what well meaning supporters against violence of women would like to see, the other side of the coin is rejected.
Rejection is something that sexworkers have fought against & have had to face all their working lives.
This kind of exclusion from well meaning groups & individuals has added to the fracture of women attempting to attain their human rights.
It, in itself is disempowering for those who represent the vast majority of sexworkers.
Which does not recognise our own abilities to make voluntary decisions, at the same time we refuse to tolerate forced-labour servitude.
The Swedish model is wrong in the assumption that `all` prostitutes are victims. To be labelled as such is morally & emotionally crippling to those in the majority of sexworkers.
The majority do `not` get included in staistics that are gathered from data received. This main body of statistics are collected from existing drop-in centres/courts & support agencies. Giving a distorted & discrimatory picture of prostitutes & prostitution. It adds to the already stereo-typing of this profession.
If this major discrepancy between forced/voluntary prostitution was acknowledged & ironed-out, I feel more prostitutes who see themselves as people who have made their own choices & are happy with their choices, would come forward to contribute & feel valued.
Feeling then that their imput has been a significant part of the construction of laws which affect `their` rights to work without harassment, in safety, with the full support of the laws around them.
Freeing large amounts of revenue which is used against prostitutes & their clients, for those who are in true need of support, in order to find a way out!
The political/social climate forces the majority of sexworkers underground, thereby giving a misrepresentation of the greater part of prostitution.
Fear of the `stigma` is the biggest oppresser of the human rights of sexworkers!
This is the reason that I am against the Swedish model & PTP, or any other law reform that shackles the freedom for any worker.
Women & children in prostitution who are abused, are so, not because of the exchange of money for sex, but because we lack the institutional powre to defend ourselves & our rights as workers. This is a labour issue not a prostitution issue!
I hope this goes some way into helping you undrestand the perspective of other prostitutes too Julia!
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sw5
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Affecting what?
« Reply #5 on Nov 10, 2004, 2:18pm »
Quote:
I am a supporter of the Swedish law. Can you give me your opinions as to why you think it would not work in the UK, and is there anyone who would support it?
Let's put it the other way around as you would like to see a fundamental change to UK law: why do you think it would work?
It has not ended prostitution in Sweden, after all.
Every one of the Swedish governmental reports examining the law believe that there has been no long-term drop in the level of prostitution.
The Swedish police say the law has made it more difficult to locate and prosecute traffickers and exploiters.
So what do you mean by 'work'?
It certainly has sent a message that there are some people, in a position to pass laws, who do not like prostitution.
But it has done that by ignoring the best interests of the people - women, really, as the existance of male sex workers is almost always ignored in the Swedish debate - who it is claimed to 'protect'.
Finally, what law would you like to see passed?
The Swedish statute concerns itself not with the purchase of sex, but of a 'temporary sexual relationship'.
If that is what you want, what does it mean?
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Redgrass
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Re: current laws effecting clients
« Reply #6 on Nov 24, 2004, 2:50pm »
There is a move to criminalise clients who have sex with those who are brought into this country for prostitution. See Media Watch.
How will clients know that their clients are forced into prostitution?
What about foreign prostitutes what are the implications for them?
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SCOTPEP
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Re: current laws effecting clients
« Reply #7 on Dec 1, 2004, 2:33pm »
Perhaps now that the deadline has passed for responses to Paying the Price, Julie will have some time available to answer the questions asked by SW5. We would also be very keen to read her responses.
As well as the Petra Ostergren essay mentioned above, Bayswan.org has a page of links to critiques of the Swedish model: www.bayswan.org/swed/swed_index.html. Of particular note are www.bayswan.org/swed/livjessen.html ("Prostitution seen as violence against women - a supportive or oppressive view?" by Liv Jessen of Norway's national centre for prostitutes) and www.bayswan.org/swed/nordicpros.html (press release from the first Nordic sex workers' conference).
Helen J Self in her comments on Liz Kelly and Julie Bindel's "A critical examination of responses to prostitution in four countries" raises points not only in her critique of their paper but in her critique of Sweden's approach itself. Unfortunately this does not seem to be on-line? One of her closing remarks is that "those who work reluctantly [should not] have their problems compounded by legislation which places them at greater risk".
Still on the subject of ways of dealing with prostitution, Julie, is it true that on Woman's Hour yesterday you asserted that Edinburgh's tolerance zone had been full of drug addicts, pimps, and violent attacks? As this is not our experience of it, nor is it the experience of the police, we would be interested to know on what research this was based, if you said it. As we have already stated many times, since losing the tolerance zone, a far greater proportion of Edinburgh's street-based sex workers are drug-dependent, there has been a rise in drug-pimping, and there has been an enormous (1000%) increase in attacks.